You’re It: Crisis, Change, and How to Lead When It Matters Most

So, knowing how to do that in these everyday sorts of mini-crises prepares you for the big event because we’re, that big thing happens and it could be blood on the floor, shots, ringing out, whatever it is. You can stop, take three deep breaths, calm, and center yourself a little bit; then you can begin to lead productively.

Eric McNulty

Todd DeVoe:     Hi and welcome to EM Weekly your emergency management podcast and this is your host Todd DeVoe today we have Eric McNulty on talking about his book You’re It. We’ve had Eric on before with the National Preparedness Leadership Intuitive over at Harvard, talking about the programs he has for leadership. Eric is a thought leader, and profound writer in the space of emergency management, and I’m really excited to have him on talking about this new book. Eric, welcome to EM Weekly.

Eric McNulty:     Thanks, Todd. Glad to be here.

Todd DeVoe:     I really should say welcome back to EM Weekly. This is our second time having this conversation, and I’m excited to have you on again.

Eric McNulty:     Well, I’m glad to be back. You reached an important audience that does great work. And so I’m always happy to be here.

Todd DeVoe:     So this time around we’re excited to have you back on to talk about your new book, You’re It: Crisis, Change, and How to Lead When It Matters Most. So well, congratulations on your new book by the way.

Eric McNulty:     Thank you. It’s been a lot of work over several years and that we’re really happy to see that the shelf.

Todd DeVoe:     So, one of the things I like about the introduction with your book is the idea that today you might be doing one job and then at the snap of a finger, you’re in a crisis situation. And when we’re talking about that crisis situation, it might not just be that large scale disaster. It could be after the shooter; it could be a crisis for your business. So it’s not just emergency management related to it, although that’s kind of the focus. So tell me about your process with this book and what you’re trying to get at.

Eric McNulty:     Well, Todd, you hit the nail on the head. That is true for more and more people today. At that moment, things can change. And you are it. You’re the one people look to for answers for direction, for confidence. So reassurance and some cases, and you’re right, that situations can, can vary widely. It can be a natural disaster. It could be an active shooter, it could be me too incident when someone comes into your office and tells you the unfortunate news, and if you haven’t thought about how you’re going to deal with that one, that can throw even seasoned emergency managers and just into the basement as we say. It could be a financial incident. It could be all kinds of things where they live in a very turbulent time. And the reason we went about writing the book was that what we’ve learned over our 15 years of teaching at the National Preparedness Leadership Initiative at Harvard is that a lot of people wind up in quote-unquote leadership positions because of their technical expertise.

Eric McNulty:     They’ve done really well at the nuts and bolts of their job. I don’t want to take anything away from doing that work really well, but they’re expected to lead, and no one’s quite told them how or given them tools or giving them ways to figure things out. And so what we’re hoping here is to in some ways duplicate with those people who have come through our programs at Harvard have seen, which is here’s some practical pragmatic ways to understand what’s happening with yourself and with others to really be able to decode a situation to understand what’s really going on and what needs to be done and then how to build connectivity. Because in a crisis situation, no matter what the crisis is, rarely do you act alone, you act with others. So how do you build connections with your team, with your boss, with other agencies and organizations, even with the general public? And so that’s what we hope we’ve done here is layout through the book it was in good stories about how it’s done, but also the tools and techniques to say, here’s how you can do it as well.

Todd DeVoe:     So can we prepare for a crisis like this and can we practice for it?

Eric McNulty:     I think you can because we have, we all have a crisis is a strong word, but we all have events in our lives virtually every day that caused the panic reaction that we call going to the basement, or others have called a big deal hijack. Someone cuts you off on the highway for example, or your boss walks in and says, we’ve got to cut overhead by 10%. Something that happened. Yeah, you lose your keys even as you’re racing out to an important appointment, and you feel that panic sensation, you know, the person cuts you off on the highway, you don’t react calmly, you beeped the horn and you may extend to a digit in your direction because you can just sort of triple a free flight by response kicks in. And it happens to all of us. Whenever there’s a perceived threat, it’s the basic instinctual response hardwired into us as humans and other mammals as well.

Eric McNulty:     So, understanding that and how to counteract it, which you can do by anything that demonstrates self-competence. So, three deep breaths, counting to 10, making coffee, going to the practice protocols that you’ve put together for you and your party verb, urgency, response plan, those things you know how to do. That resets your brain, almost like rebooting a computer. So, knowing how to do that in the, in this everyday sort of mini crises prepares you for the big event. Because when that big thing happens, and it could be blood on the floor, shots, ringing out, whatever it is, you can stop, take three deep breaths, calm and said to yourself a little bit; then you can begin to lead proactively. And the same thing is true of, of understanding what’s going on in the situation. What’s the second one is the second dimension of our model.

Eric McNulty:     If you can learn to ask smart questions and to really listen and to look for patterns in your everyday interactions with people, you’ll be better prepared to do it when they’re real crisis hits. So yes, these are things, you know, we have found that crisis leadership is not a different set of skills. It’s the same skills you do every day what you’re doing things well but taken to a higher level. You know, one analogy I’ve used, you know, we’ve all been watching the comeback of Tiger Woods. If you look at Tiger and a weekend golfer, they both use roughly the same equipment. They both play 18 holes. They both use the same size ball, but the weekend golfer is not Tiger Woods. Tiger plays that game at a much higher level using the same playing by the same rules and all the same things that weekend golfer is doing but doing it at a much higher level. And that’s what we think differentiates the really strong leaders both in routine and in crisis situations is they focus, they work, they practice so that they’re able to play their best game ever. Whether it’s in an everyday interaction or when that big crisis hits.

Todd DeVoe:     When I think of the crisis leader, I think of Sully from the plane crash in the Hudson. You know, walking through that checklist. How did he, and I’m not asking you to get into his head, but just kind of knowing how you analyze things, how do you think he was able to really lead his crew through that process?

Eric McNulty:     Well, I think, I think you’re right. New checklists and a big part of it and that’s why pilots are trained that way. So then when things started to go south, and he knew relatively quickly from everything that I’ve read and heard that there was a serious problem, he knew what to do, and this is that same process I just described them. Okay, go to the checklist. If that’s light, light is blinking, what do I do? I rehearse that and know what to do. That helps you be calm. When you’re calm, you respond at a more measured way. And when those around you see that you were called, they tend to get calm as well. We have what are called mirror neurons. In our brains, we tend to mirror each other’s behavior. So if you see panic, you’re more likely to panic as well. But if you see someone who’s calm, then you’re more likely to become too.

Eric McNulty:     But with Sally did in that situation was he said, you know, he knows how to fly an aircraft. He knows that aircraft well, he knows how it works. He knows what the instruments do with different controls do. It’s a matter of trying to keep your head about you and come up with the best possible outcome. So he quickly had to figure out, no, we can’t turn this around. He can’t get to Teterboro. He’s going to have to bring this thing down someplace. The Hudson River’s wide enough planes float for at least a little bit, and he had to make that call. but that you can do that much more with much more confidence when you’re widths are about you, when you’ve again, doesn’t steps to reset the Amygdala hijack, go to what you know how to do. And once you start doing what you know how to do, even if it isn’t the perfect thing, you can then adapt more easily. And that, and that’s what he did. And that’s what we’ve seen in other incidents as well.

Todd DeVoe:     So when I teach about responding to an active shooter at the college where I work and I discussed the concept of already having that plan in your head to do the uh, if you will use in Boyd’s OODA loop, uh, to, to know where you’re going, analyze the situation and then go back and act again. Um, is this the same thing that we’re talking about here with the, with your concept of You’re it or is it a little bit deeper than that?

Speaker 1:           It’s very similar that we’ve got something in the book we call the pop doc loop, which is built on Boyd’s work in the OODA loop. And we looked at and said, okay, boy did amazing work, and his work has still used the train most fighter pilots around the world. However, that’s built for the environment of a cockpit. And some of them are generally working alone, or with a very small crew, the POP-DOC loops similarly get you through a series of steps. In our case, it’s perceived. So start bringing in data gathering. What do you think’s happening? Orient. So what does that mean? That pop, pop shots, or is it a truck backfiring? Once you begin to Orient, look for patterns, you can predict what’s going to happen next. And if you’re predicting that tee you up to make a decision, that’s The d of The doc, operationalize it.

Eric McNulty:     Because your brain has to operate a little differently to make a decision versus carrying it out and then communicating. Because as a leader, you’re worried about the people around you as well or are you communicating clearly and going to that loop helps keeps you centered. So yes, I mean you think of an active shooter you know there’s some controversy over it now that most of us have learned run, hide, fight, which gets you to, the first thing you’re going to do is try to assess, can I run, where can I run? You’re thinking about that. If you can’t run, okay, I know what to do. Hide. And we’ve interviewed people who are in active shooter situations who were able to hide under a desk, under a box, whatever, and that kept them alive. And then only if you are found out and you have no choice, do you try and engage someone who’s probably, you know, better armed than you, better armored than you as well do that.

Eric McNulty:     And so that kind of rehearsal just thought, you know, we’ve all been doing fire drills since we were in grade school and that, you know, when you hear the Klaxon go off, you know, you walk down a stairway and where your muster point is and that knowing what to do helps calm you down and helps you take productive steps. So rarely do we jump out of our scheme were shocked for a moment when we hear that fire alarm go off. But then if we don’t smell smoke, I think, okay, it’s the fire alarm, or it’s a fire drill. We know what to do, and we go do it. And most people can execute on that, uh, pretty well. So, you’re absolutely doing the right thing and getting people to think about it ahead of time of what are you going to do and have those basic steps in mind.

Todd DeVoe:     All right. So I want to give a little in more into the, to your writing. Let’s talk about Metta leadership. What exactly is that, and how did you come up with it?

Eric McNulty:     So middle leadership is the Metta prefix is about taking a very broad view of what’s happening, uh, and not getting stuck in the weeds and thinking about what’s happening now and what’s going to happen next. And so he put that Metta prefix in front to differentiate this in a way from other leadership work. And there’s much value in that work. But it, most of what we’ve seen does not encompass the full range of challenges that a leader faces. About 85% of the leadership literature is really focused on, leading down what we call leading down to your, to your team or your troops. He was the boss in a hierarchical situation. And that’s important, that’s one facet of it, but it’s not the only one. So our model has three dimensions. It starts with you, the person who are you, how well do you know yourself, know your emotional composition, how emotionally intelligent are you?

Eric McNulty:     You understand what pushes buttons, you have the people who can push you understand. And if you taught yourself how to react and crisis, can you maintain some emotional, controlling regulation? The second dimension, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, is the situation you are leading in a context. Is it a life or death situation? Is it a financial calamity? Is it things are going fine? You know, the behavior is a function of the person in their environment. It’s a basic principle of social psychology. So if you want to understand how you and others are going to behave, you have to look at who they are as a person and what’s the environment in which they find themselves. And that will give you a great clue as to what’s happening and what you need to do. The third dimension is conductivity goes, as I mentioned, you know, leaders, unless you have someone to lead, you’re not leading.

Eric McNulty:     So it’s the relationship between leaders and followers. And so understanding what’s the connectivity you need. We, and we’ve seen your responses that would, the Boston marathon bombing here in our hometown was one, a very dramatic example of leaders working really well together. And it was no accident. They had practiced and trained for years to get good at working with each other. So when that, when the bombs went off the different law enforcement agencies, EMS, fire, even the civilian, and the nonprofits involved in there and the race worked really well together on they’re very tense circumstances because they had built that conductivity and other, other responses we’ve seen that have not gone so well. You see, in fighting, you see turf battles, you see little sharp elbows and who’s in charge, and things don’t go so well. You’ve got very broken conductivity.

Eric McNulty:     So what we have found is if you just keep those three things in mind when you’re leading in a crisis, okay, the person who I, okay, am I centered? I think it might, deep breaths. I centered myself cognitively and psychologically. Do I understand what’s going on around me and my asking questions? Am I figuring out what’s happening and then have I engage the different people and organizations I need in order to get to the public the best possible outcome. That’s a great guide. And it can be, you know, it’s not hard to remember. So if you’re in a tough situation, can remember those three dimensions as a beginning of a checklist to get yourself going.

Todd DeVoe:     Do good leaders need to have technical expertise in order to lead their group?

Eric McNulty:     I don’t believe so. They either respect of their group, which is different than having the technical expertise. It’s funny; I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, uh, about being put in charge of a group where you don’t have as much technical expertise. Actually, it can be a great advantage. The thing you need to lead is to understand people in group dynamics, and what makes people tick, what motivates them, be able to diagnose the relationships between them. Those are the things you need to create unity of effort to create a really cohesive team that can move forward together. I think it’s actually best if you are leading a team always to assume that you are not the smartest person at the table. And if be looking for the other people to call on their expertise to help them build their expertise. because again, if someone is in that leadership position, if trying to do every job where second-guessing decisions that only degrades team performance, , as a leader you need to be getting people to do their best and what some of the things we’ve learned through research or that, , three big drivers of psychological satisfaction at work and that lead to high performance.

Eric McNulty:     One is competence. You are feeling like you know what you’re doing. So, if your boss is not second-guessing you have a higher degree of competence, you feel like you, you can, you’re trusted for the job. The second is autonomy. People like to be able to make decisions and take action on their own. That’s how they demonstrate their competence. And the third one is relatedness. They like to be part of a good team. So as a leader, you are trying to create that unity of purpose. You’re trying to create positive dynamics within the team and if it’s something not jelling to be able to fix it and help everyone around you succeed. If you do those things, you don’t need to be a technical expert. You can be the person who helps each of them demonstrate their, their technical expertise at a high level and achieve a good outcome.

Todd DeVoe:     what about the unofficial the locker room leader, if you will. How do we utilize those, leaders that might not be a leader in an official capacity as saying by the title?

Eric McNulty:     It’s a really great question, and it’s a topic that I have a particular passion for. like I just wrote a piece for strategy and business was published last week. so that was early May for those of you who are listening now, and it said, don’t be a leader. And by that, I meant these quotes around that leader. We should really just stop thinking about the leader as a position and think about it as a set of behaviors. And when you do that, you can lead from wherever you are. Those are those locker room leaders. So you may not get the coach, you may not be the quarterback, but you’re the person who can get that team rallied up and ready to go. And maybe out of the, out of the dumps from, they haven’t had a good first quarter or first half, depending on the sport.

Eric McNulty:     But we think of it as behaviors, and we think of leading as a verb as opposed to the leader as a noun. It becomes a much more dynamic, continue much more interesting concept because anyone can do it in a lot of people. Should be doing it if the situation calls for it. If you need someone to be leading, somebody needs to step up and do it. And they can’t wait for that person with a bigger title. And frankly, in many organizations, I’ve seen people achieve very high rank who are not very good at leading. They may have been technically competent, and that’s what the system rewarded. In some cases, they were good brown nosers and knew how to work the politics. So they got promoted. Sometimes they were just good, for example, at the financial piece of things and that was appropriate at a time and sewing, and this is more of the private sector, but someone who was terrific at that, um, terrific.

Eric McNulty:     It making, you know, making the bottom line pay off and they wind up in a very senior position, but who aren’t very good with the human factors, had good understanding themselves and the people around them and creating that spirit of, hey, we’re doing this together and we’re going to do great things. and so I think if we could make that shift from leading or a leader or as a noun shifting to leading as a verb, that’s a great step. And then to realize all that we do in emergency management, it is a team sport, and you need everybody on the team performing well, and different people are going to lead at different times. That happens in virtually every, every sport out there too, you know, the support analogy. I don’t care what it is and he team sport you need people to be playing that position. Well in a time they step up, and they lead, and even though you’re in a more senior position, you may follow them because they, it’s the appropriate way to get to the best possible outcome.

Todd DeVoe:     One of the things that I really am attuned to, and it’s through the training that we had, that I had in the military. And then also, um, you know, some people who are writing about these things as well are, are kind of bringing it up as well as allowing your team to fail because we learn more from our failures. How do we get people to really understand that and embrace that concept?

Eric McNulty:     Well, you have to make it safe to fail. And of course, we’re not talking about catastrophic failure. We don’t want people to die because you failed. But to be trying new things, to have a test failsafe spaces to experiment, to even celebrate failures when you’ve learned from them. If a gentleman I know in, in, in the Netherlands works for one of the big banks, they are, and he started something called the Institute for brilliant failures where they actually honor and venerate those people who tried something new, failed but help the bank develop, builds its knowledge and know how to do things smarter next time. cause we, we humans only and we don’t only, but we largely learned through failure. You know, none of us learned to walk by standing up and getting it perfect the first time. We had a fall down several times.

Eric McNulty:     And if you’re afraid to take chances, you don’t do anything, do you become very risk-averse and research has shown you actually will perform less well. So, Amy Edmonds and my colleague, my colleague over at the Harvard Business School, has written a book called The Fearless Organization. And she talks about the concept of psychological safety. And that is an environment where you feel safe to express your opinions, try something new, admitted when you’d made a mistake. And in her research she did with medical teams, she found that those teams where it was, people were more open to discussing their mistakes, made fewer mistakes. That just think about that for a second. When you can talk about your mistakes, you make fewer mistakes because everyone has a chance to learn for when things go wrong. Aviation safety that we talked about earlier with Sully, there was a time when you would be penalized for near misses so people would not report them.

Eric McNulty:     And they, the industry discovered, and the pilots work toward being able to report near misses or mistakes that weren’t catastrophic, and they were not penalized for that because of the way the system got smarter. And we have a safe rate aviation system because of it. So, I think that as the, as emergency managers are practicing their craft, you want always to give people the opportunity to stretch again. Now, let me, when a life is on the line, but in others, less daunting circumstances get people used to trying something and as long as you figure out what went wrong and why you won’t, why it won’t happen again, that’s actually a win. That’s a win. That’s got that gaining knowledge. You’ve now built up your knowledge base, your ability to do things. So you’ve actually turned a negative into a positive.

Todd DeVoe:     I actually had one of my students call me the other day, and she was going in for a, a class that she’s doing with FEMA right now, and she’s gotten tapped on the, on the nose to be the, uh, the EOC manager for a drill. And she’s kind of freaking out. And I told her, I said, look, at the end of the day, no one’s really going to die. So if you go through and you make mistakes, take those notes and learn from those. And this is where you want to make those mistakes, and you’re not going to fail the class.

Eric McNulty:     Absolutely. But there has been a tradition, sadly of, no, not everybody, but certain organizations we’d do drills. And the point was to get a perfect score, right? And that was what they considered a successful, successful drill low. Look at how good we are. And I think anytime you’re doing a driller and exercise; if you get a perfect score, you didn’t work hard enough at the drill or the exercise. That scenario was not tough enough. It always got to push you to the point where you’re at the brink of failure, or you’ve started to stumble because again, as you just mentioned, that’s how you figure out what you would do in real life. Because in a real crisis, things are going to pop up unexpectedly. Things are not going to go exactly as planned. We can guarantee that. So, you’ve got to be able to figure things out on the fly. So it’s better that you make mistakes, as you said, in an exercise environment. But if you can’t make a mistake in an exercise environment, when are you going to make it? And so you’ll get to learn until the real thing in front of you. And it could be a situation where, again, people get hurt or killed.

Todd DeVoe:     You know, I, I tell this story before and those of you listened to them, to the podcast that we’ll offer this, that I was doing an exercise with someone and when we did the after action report, I put in some of the areas where they need to improve and they, they asked me to take those areas out because they were like, oh, well we’re, we’re going to have to fix that, and we’re going to get in trouble if we don’t fix it. And I’m like, well, it’s not the whole purpose of why we’re, there was a fire drill exercise actually. The problem was the audible alarm sounded like a buzzer from, um, from a dryer is what we’re told and that they actually asked us to take that out of there, their exercise. And I walked away from that thinking, why do we do these exercises? Find areas that need to be improved, but yet don’t want to put the money into it to fix those areas that want to be improved. And I think this is where we sometimes fail as emergency managers and as policymakers for that matter of not taking these exercises seriously and learning from the mistakes.

Eric McNulty:     Absolutely. It’s one of the most illuminating stories. I, I picked up while we were preparing for the book. It’s in the book is, from a managing partner of an investment bank in New York called Santa Road. His name is Jimmy and we his from last quite never people on 9/11. They were in the towers, which is why I was there talking to him, which is a separate story but very instructive. But after I interviewed him, he gave me a tour of their trading floor trader ever been on a, an investment bank trading full, but it’s of a sea of people. It’s like an EOC on steroids. Everyone’s got three screens and four phones in its frenetic activity of super trading on these global markets. And I turned to him, and I said, Jimmy, how do you manage this? This is just like, you know, it looks like chaos, but it’s a lot of things, had a lot of people doing a lot of things simultaneously.

Eric McNulty:     And he said, rule number one is bad news finds me fast. You will never get fired here from making an honest mistake, but you’ll get fired in a heartbeat for making one and trying to cover it up because the faster I find out about the mistake is made, the faster I can help you fix it and protect the customer whose money we may be losing. And to me that was, it’s a simple principle, but he was clear, and you know, he was a guy who said, you will, you will get in big trouble if you don’t admit the mistake. If you admit it, that’s okay. But I’d be happy that you just lost a million dollars or whatever. But if it was an honest mistake, you were doing what you thought you should do, the way that you’ve been trained to do it, they weren’t going to blame you. That’s the system. That’s the markets. That’s whatever it is, let’s fix it. And to me, that’s such a refreshing way to run a business or run an operation. But so often we get people who are afraid to speak their mind or afraid to say something that’s going on because they’re afraid of getting yelled at. And there, as you say, it’s going to, you know, there are negative consequences for pointing out what’s not perfect.

Todd DeVoe:     When you’re writing this book, what are the three biggest takeaways that you took away from it?

Eric McNulty:     I think the first one is what part of why I love writing. It’s like I get to interview a lot of smart, interesting people and I, there is one, the meet so many amazing people doing good work out there in emergency management, in related fields and other fields as well, and facing crises. And I, so I learned, I learned a tremendous amount from, from this process. And I think there were examples all around us of people who are doing good work, interesting work, people from who we all can learn. So I think that first take away is there’s just a lot for us all to learn. So we need you never stop learning. I think the second takeaway was, or is that it’s incredibly helpful for people to have a framework with which to organize what they’re doing. I don’t claim that metal leadership is the perfect framework or the ultimate framework, but personally have to person who had been through programs with familiar with that model talked about how we just helped them organize and not just what we get taught them, but what they had learned through other reading on the programs in the military or in law enforcement, uh, what they learned in life.

Eric McNulty:     And having just a simple way to organize it that makes sense of it, help them be much more effective. And third, and then perhaps is most important, is that the end of the day, this is all about people. I don’t care how sophisticated protocols get or how fancy does it, the technology we deploy, or how much money we spend on things. At the end of the day, this is about people. This is the people who are serving the people they are serving. And the work that all of us do is about trying to make our community safer, making them more resilient, making them better places to be. And in a, in a world where you can turn on the news, you get a lot of, depressing stories, one after another. It was incredibly buoying to me, to be able to encounter and help document so many people who are just doing good things in the world and they look at their, their, the people next to them and say, hey, how’re my neighbors? I want to help them. There are some people I don’t even know, but I want to go help them. And, that to me gave me a lot of hope for the future and a lot of optimism.

Todd DeVoe:     For those of you who’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that myself. And then, uh, uh, my buddy Brian, we love to be in the outdoors and hiking and camping and taking trucks off-road and whatnot. And, and I know that outdoors is important to you too. And one of the things that I want to give you a couple of seconds here to talk about is how are the elephants doing?

Eric McNulty:     The elephants are in tough shape, but for those of you who don’t know, I, I started something called the Elephant and Wisdom Project. I have a great passion for the environment and, and for wildlife. and I started Elephant and Wisdom Project because elephants are dying at a rate that they could be extinct in the wild within 10 years, maybe even sooner than that, but 96 a day that is killed either through poaching traps, hunting for the population in the wild is being, is being decimated. And our lives as humans actually depend on biodiversity. And if we have a world where elephants can thrive, I don’t think we’re going to thrive much longer after that. And so what I’ve tried to do is begin to make a connection and give people a way to get some psychological distance. So we’re close to all of our, our human stuff.

Eric McNulty:     Let’s look out there. And for those of you who have kids, we’re thinking about kids. Do you want to be the one that looks in the, in that Alphabet book when you get to the Es and say, oh yeah, elephants, that’s something we had when I was young, but they’re gone now as a way of pointing out, we have to pay attention, not just to the human piece of things, but the, the other species with which we share this planet as we look at all the flooding and the wildfires and the other things that are, that are happening these days, humans aren’t the only ones effective, but we are dependent in many ways in the life around us. And so I raised money for something called the big life foundation that does work in Africa with particularly with elephants and with doing sustainable development there.

Eric McNulty:     But that’s, that’s just who I’ve chosen. I just think it’s a; it’s important than, you know, cause you like the outdoors as well, that it’s a, it’s a privilege to be, to be in nature and it’s really, it’s psychologically healthy for us to be in nature. And if we want that to be there, we’ve got to take some, take some action to sure that we help preserve it and that we’re doing our human thing in a smarter way as possible and not thinking we can live on this planet all by ourselves. And I greatly appreciate you giving me a couple of minutes to talk about that.

Todd DeVoe:     Oh, anytime. So, I’m going to let you do one more. If you had the ability to talk to all the emergency managers at one time, well one thing would you like them to take away from this conversation?

Eric McNulty:     I think it comes down to the title of the book. And I don’t mean that just the plug the book, but you’re, it, you are it. I think that our communities face more and more challenges. there’s a lot of social stress, but between severe weather and whatever’s driving the active shooters and other folks who were doing bad things, our communities look to you. You are it, and that’s an awesome responsibility, and it’s an awesome commitment that you have made. And, I just hope that through this, through the book to this conversation through other work that I do, and my colleagues do that if we can help you be just a little bit better in your job, that’s all I ask. That’s all, that’s what I get out of this because I am so grateful for the work that you do and if we can help you do it as a little bit better and help you understand the leadership piece in more depth, so you’re more effective, that’s all we asked for. And I would just like to say to everybody, thank you. Keep using your superpowers for good.

Todd DeVoe:     How can they find your book, You’re it?

Eric McNulty:     You can find it at your local bookseller. You can find it online at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. if you want to find the choice of where to go, you simple URL, which is will take you to the publisher’s page, which has links to all the places you can buy it. But as of June 11, that should be, it’ll be online. You can order it now or, in your favorite bookstore.

Todd DeVoe:     Oh, yeah. Audiobooks too. That’s, uh, that’s my favorite way because of my crazy commute audiobooks as well.

Eric McNulty:     Absolutely. Wow.

Todd DeVoe:     Well, Eric, thank you so much for being on again, and that’s a, it’s always a pleasure to have you, and I can’t wait to run into you again,

Eric McNulty:     Todd. Thank you so much. I’ll look forward to seeing you in person and thank you to all your listeners for, uh, for tuning into this. And it’s been great.

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